We spoke with Louis Fishman* about recent events such as the pogroms by far-right Jewish extremist groups after the elections and the Israel-Gaza ceasefire, the elections in Israel, antisemitism, progressive anti-war groups led by Jews and Palestinians such as Standing Together, and Ben & Jerry. Thanks again to Louis Fishman for taking the time to share his valuable thoughts with us.
Eli Haligua: Netanyahu handed over power after 12 years, but his ‘legacy’ will affect Israel for a long time to come. I also think that his relations with Trump, Orban and other anti-Semitic heads of state should not be forgotten. How do you think people in the region will feel the impact of Netanyahu’s years in power?
Louis Fishman: Now with almost a month of Netanyahu not being Prime Minister we are starting to be able to comprehend a world without him. True, he is still in the Knesset as the Opposition Head, however, with every passing day that the Bennett-Lapid government succeeds he will become less relevant, with the chances of him ever returning even more slimmer. Unfortunately, however, Netanyahu’s legacy of opportunism mixed with an ideology of a continued neatly contained occupation will remain with us for much longer. In fact, one could argue that Netanyahuism—or the legacy of Netanyahu—was his ability to converge a strong economy with an obedient media that only perpetuates the continued oppression of Palestinians. In fact one could argue that Netanyahu conditioned Israelis to become greatly apolitical in exchange for economic benefits, which were also reached through his relations with antisemitic leaders, such as you stated. This same conditioning also transformed Israelis to treat every Palestinian as an existential threat, dehumanizing them to a great extent. Thus, the damage has been done and in the short term seems irreversible. Change can happen; however, this often comes at moments in history when we least expect it. For now, the situation is bleak despite some small glimmers of hope.
EH: A very broad coalition government has been formed in Israel. Some are pessimistic for change, while others are hopeful, especially with the Arabs in the coalition and this diverse representation. What do you think about the possibilities of this broad coalition government?
LF: Certainly, the Bennett-Lapid government could be seen as the most representative government in Israeli history. It is bringing together religious and secular, Jew and Arab, nationalists and right wing members together with the center-left and left. It is quite impressive. The Haredi parties were invited but have put “all their eggs,” into Netanyahu’s basket. Still, they also need to know that the status quo of them getting a disproportionate piece of the pie would one day come to an end. Thus, in short, I support this government even if the party I supported (Hadash/Joint List) is not part of the coalition. Really, this was a matter of Netanyahu continuing or not, thus I supported the other. As someone who comes from the left as well, my full respect goes to the Knesset members of Meretz (and to an extent the Labor Party). They both have Arab representation, and the Meretz members also include the Human Rights lawyer, Gabi Lasky, and an iconic activist like Mossi Raz (in addition to their overall impressive list). Thus, yes, this government is complicated, and that also concerns the fact that the very courageous politician Mansour Abbas, who now is the first Palestinian citizen of the state to join a coalition within an Arab party framework, also joined on board. Thus, even when he was part of the Joint List and I was uneasy with his conservative Islamist politics, I do believe he is sincere in progressing the agenda of the population he represents.
EH: Before the ceasefire, even before the war flared up again, we witnessed racist Jewish groups looting Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, and when the war flared up, we witnessed state-sponsored right-wing Jewish groups carrying out Pogroms against Palestinians in some areas. Unfortunately, what happened was not surprising to me, considering the seeds of hatred that had been sown for so many years, but as the granddaughter of a victim of the Thracian Pogrom, it was impossible to remain indifferent to what happened. What do you think about the climate that made a people who have been victims of dozens of Pogroms for hundreds of years a perpetrator this time and how do you think the relations between Jewish and Arab neighbors living in Israel will continue after these events?
LF: Organized Jewish attacks on Palestinians, whether in the West Bank, or in Israel, where they are citizens is absolutely abhorrible. It is a stain on the Jewish people, who like in Thrace, suffered attacks to the silence of the Turkish Muslim majority. Sadly, we know that people who have been oppressed and suffered discrimination and racism, can also themselves become the attacker and the racist. I am happy to say that over the last few years, joint Jewish-Arab political activism is growing, and that this hatred was met with protests (as you mention below, Standing Together). I might add that with the breakout of mass violence in May, one needs to separate intercommunal violence between Jews and Arabs, with the very organized Jewish groups attacking Palestinian citizens of the state. This just did not happen overnight, fascist Jewish groups have been tolerated within the Israeli society far too long and now are represented in the Knesset by the likes of Itamar Ben-Gvir.
EH: Despite the ceasefire between Israel and Gaza and the formation of a new government, tensions in the region continue. We see thousands of people, even young people, chanting “Death to the Arabs!” on the streets. On the one hand, we think that a Jewish Supremacist perspective is the norm in Israel, and on the other hand, we see the emergence of the youth-led movement “Standing Together”, which is rapidly reaching large masses, and again we see hundreds of thousands of people, this time fighting for coexistence and chanting slogans for the freedom of peoples. How do you evaluate these two youth-led movements and which way do you think the wind will blow in Israel?
LF: Yes, this was what I was highlighting above. Yes, Standing Together is growing, however, the only way to combat the real fascism is through education. Also, Israelis need to admit that the present status quo is not sustainable. They need to decide if they really want to continue down a path where Jews are ruling over another people. Certainly, there are no quick fixes, but there really is no alternative. We saw last May how fragile the current state of affairs is; then, with a small push a much worse scenario of total chaos could have emerged.
EH: Another thing that struck me during the last war we witnessed was that Palestinians and/or people who criticized Israel’s policies were able to find space in the mainstream media and even many popular figures openly opposed Israel’s policies. In addition, many Jewish youth in Israel, Canada and the US, including If Not Now, have also been vocally opposed to Israel’s policies and have not paid much attention to accusations of being “anti-Semites” or “self-haters”. Progressive Jews in particular have argued that such accusations against them make the fight against antisemitism more difficult, and that antisemitism is even abused. Can you share your observations and thoughts on this?
LM: Jewish and progressive voices need to join to say enough. However, they also need to come up with solutions that offer Jews and Palestinians a mutual future. Unfortunately, I see a divide between the world’s activist that rightly criticize Israel, but at the same time do not provide a path of how this can be done. We need to keep peace and justice as a goal. We need to remind all first and foremost of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the injustice that Palestinians endure on a daily basis. But at the same time we need to remember that Israelis are not going anywhere and that most of them arrived to Israel as refugees. Sadly, as we know from Turkey, it was antisemitism that led many Jews to leave; thus pro-Palestinian Turkish Muslims need to understand that intolerance in their own society also created this modern day conflict. Certainly, there are no easy answers. But if we join forces, there is a much better chance at coming to a just solution.
*Louis Fishman is an associate professor at Brooklyn College and the author of Jews and Palestinians in the Late Ottoman Era, 1908-1914: Claiming the Homeland. Fishman, who lives in the US, Turkey and Israel, speaks English, Hebrew, Arabic, Turkish, German and French. Fishman also writes commentary for Haaretz.
We spoke with Louis Fishman* about recent events such as the pogroms by far-right Jewish extremist groups after the elections and the Israel-Gaza ceasefire, the elections in Israel, antisemitism, progressive anti-war groups led by Jews and Palestinians such as Standing Together, and Ben & Jerry. Thanks again to Louis Fishman for taking the time to share his valuable thoughts with us.
Eli Haligua: Netanyahu handed over power after 12 years, but his ‘legacy’ will affect Israel for a long time to come. I also think that his relations with Trump, Orban and other anti-Semitic heads of state should not be forgotten. How do you think people in the region will feel the impact of Netanyahu’s years in power?
Louis Fishman: Now with almost a month of Netanyahu not being Prime Minister we are starting to be able to comprehend a world without him. True, he is still in the Knesset as the Opposition Head, however, with every passing day that the Bennett-Lapid government succeeds he will become less relevant, with the chances of him ever returning even more slimmer. Unfortunately, however, Netanyahu’s legacy of opportunism mixed with an ideology of a continued neatly contained occupation will remain with us for much longer. In fact, one could argue that Netanyahuism—or the legacy of Netanyahu—was his ability to converge a strong economy with an obedient media that only perpetuates the continued oppression of Palestinians. In fact one could argue that Netanyahu conditioned Israelis to become greatly apolitical in exchange for economic benefits, which were also reached through his relations with antisemitic leaders, such as you stated. This same conditioning also transformed Israelis to treat every Palestinian as an existential threat, dehumanizing them to a great extent. Thus, the damage has been done and in the short term seems irreversible. Change can happen; however, this often comes at moments in history when we least expect it. For now, the situation is bleak despite some small glimmers of hope.
EH: A very broad coalition government has been formed in Israel. Some are pessimistic for change, while others are hopeful, especially with the Arabs in the coalition and this diverse representation. What do you think about the possibilities of this broad coalition government?
LF: Certainly, the Bennett-Lapid government could be seen as the most representative government in Israeli history. It is bringing together religious and secular, Jew and Arab, nationalists and right wing members together with the center-left and left. It is quite impressive. The Haredi parties were invited but have put “all their eggs,” into Netanyahu’s basket. Still, they also need to know that the status quo of them getting a disproportionate piece of the pie would one day come to an end. Thus, in short, I support this government even if the party I supported (Hadash/Joint List) is not part of the coalition. Really, this was a matter of Netanyahu continuing or not, thus I supported the other. As someone who comes from the left as well, my full respect goes to the Knesset members of Meretz (and to an extent the Labor Party). They both have Arab representation, and the Meretz members also include the Human Rights lawyer, Gabi Lasky, and an iconic activist like Mossi Raz (in addition to their overall impressive list). Thus, yes, this government is complicated, and that also concerns the fact that the very courageous politician Mansour Abbas, who now is the first Palestinian citizen of the state to join a coalition within an Arab party framework, also joined on board. Thus, even when he was part of the Joint List and I was uneasy with his conservative Islamist politics, I do believe he is sincere in progressing the agenda of the population he represents.
EH: Before the ceasefire, even before the war flared up again, we witnessed racist Jewish groups looting Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, and when the war flared up, we witnessed state-sponsored right-wing Jewish groups carrying out Pogroms against Palestinians in some areas. Unfortunately, what happened was not surprising to me, considering the seeds of hatred that had been sown for so many years, but as the granddaughter of a victim of the Thracian Pogrom, it was impossible to remain indifferent to what happened. What do you think about the climate that made a people who have been victims of dozens of Pogroms for hundreds of years a perpetrator this time and how do you think the relations between Jewish and Arab neighbors living in Israel will continue after these events?
LF: Organized Jewish attacks on Palestinians, whether in the West Bank, or in Israel, where they are citizens is absolutely abhorrible. It is a stain on the Jewish people, who like in Thrace, suffered attacks to the silence of the Turkish Muslim majority. Sadly, we know that people who have been oppressed and suffered discrimination and racism, can also themselves become the attacker and the racist. I am happy to say that over the last few years, joint Jewish-Arab political activism is growing, and that this hatred was met with protests (as you mention below, Standing Together). I might add that with the breakout of mass violence in May, one needs to separate intercommunal violence between Jews and Arabs, with the very organized Jewish groups attacking Palestinian citizens of the state. This just did not happen overnight, fascist Jewish groups have been tolerated within the Israeli society far too long and now are represented in the Knesset by the likes of Itamar Ben-Gvir.
EH: Despite the ceasefire between Israel and Gaza and the formation of a new government, tensions in the region continue. We see thousands of people, even young people, chanting “Death to the Arabs!” on the streets. On the one hand, we think that a Jewish Supremacist perspective is the norm in Israel, and on the other hand, we see the emergence of the youth-led movement “Standing Together”, which is rapidly reaching large masses, and again we see hundreds of thousands of people, this time fighting for coexistence and chanting slogans for the freedom of peoples. How do you evaluate these two youth-led movements and which way do you think the wind will blow in Israel?
LF: Yes, this was what I was highlighting above. Yes, Standing Together is growing, however, the only way to combat the real fascism is through education. Also, Israelis need to admit that the present status quo is not sustainable. They need to decide if they really want to continue down a path where Jews are ruling over another people. Certainly, there are no quick fixes, but there really is no alternative. We saw last May how fragile the current state of affairs is; then, with a small push a much worse scenario of total chaos could have emerged.
EH: Another thing that struck me during the last war we witnessed was that Palestinians and/or people who criticized Israel’s policies were able to find space in the mainstream media and even many popular figures openly opposed Israel’s policies. In addition, many Jewish youth in Israel, Canada and the US, including If Not Now, have also been vocally opposed to Israel’s policies and have not paid much attention to accusations of being “anti-Semites” or “self-haters”. Progressive Jews in particular have argued that such accusations against them make the fight against antisemitism more difficult, and that antisemitism is even abused. Can you share your observations and thoughts on this?
LM: Jewish and progressive voices need to join to say enough. However, they also need to come up with solutions that offer Jews and Palestinians a mutual future. Unfortunately, I see a divide between the world’s activist that rightly criticize Israel, but at the same time do not provide a path of how this can be done. We need to keep peace and justice as a goal. We need to remind all first and foremost of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the injustice that Palestinians endure on a daily basis. But at the same time we need to remember that Israelis are not going anywhere and that most of them arrived to Israel as refugees. Sadly, as we know from Turkey, it was antisemitism that led many Jews to leave; thus pro-Palestinian Turkish Muslims need to understand that intolerance in their own society also created this modern day conflict. Certainly, there are no easy answers. But if we join forces, there is a much better chance at coming to a just solution.
*Louis Fishman is an associate professor at Brooklyn College and the author of Jews and Palestinians in the Late Ottoman Era, 1908-1914: Claiming the Homeland. Fishman, who lives in the US, Turkey and Israel, speaks English, Hebrew, Arabic, Turkish, German and French. Fishman also writes commentary for Haaretz.
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